When Christian Nationalists Say They Want to Destroy Democracy, Believe Them
“Now’s the time to gaslight them into thinking that democracy is a right-wing project," podcaster reveals during election night conversation
It was election night of 2024, and some of the most anti-democratic voices in America were waiting to find out if their candidate, Donald Trump, would be elected the next president of the United States.
What they revealed during an almost nine-hour podcast marathon provides an eye-opening look into the challenge America now faces. As the video from that evening shows, far-right figures are determined to get their way politically — even if it means abandoning long-held democratic norms.
And they do not mind “gaslighting” America about their true intentions.
Looking back, I am reminded of Maya Angelou’s admonition: “When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
That night, the hosts of the Contra Mundum podcast — self-proclaimed as the “Number one Christian nationalist podcast in the world” — awaited the results from a small office building in tiny Gainesboro, Tennessee.
The Christian nationalists had relocated there to rural Jackson County in hopes of building their own “aligned community” where, as they envisioned it, most people would look and think like them. They want an America as it existed before the civil rights movement, in their words, “ruined everything.”
As the evening progressed, the podcasters and their guests agreed, if Trump won, they would at least pretend to continue to support democracy in America.
“Now is not the time to, like, counter-signal democracy,” said one of the podcasters, C.Jay Engel, a self-described “counter-revolutionary” whose stated goal is to “radicalize Main Street.”
“Now’s the time to, like, gaslight them into thinking that, like, democracy is a right-wing project.”
His podcast co-host, Reformed Pastor Andrew Isker, laughed uproariously.
“That’s right,” Isker agreed.
Josh Abbotoy, one of the developers behind the Jackson County project, urged them to bask in the moment.
“Guys, this is OUR democracy,” Abbotoy insisted.
“We are the captain now,” Isker agreed.
“This is the Jacksonian moment,” Engel added. “Democracy is cool — since we won.”
“What the heck?” I thought. “Democracy is cool — since we won?”
This was the mindset that led to the assault on the U.S. Capitol on January 6: We support democracy, we support the right of the people to elect their leaders, we support the peaceful transfer of power — but only when we win!
Of course, when he was not winning, Engel had never been a great fan of democracy.
He has argued that America should only be a place for people of White European descent – so-called “Heritage Americans” – with an allowance for descendants of America’s slaves as long as they promise not to try to make the country feel guilty for what White people did to their ancestors.
Engel advocates for deporting tens of millions of immigrants, including people who have been U.S. citizens for decades.
Here are some examples of what Engel has said:
“Universal mass Democracy is an existential threat to the West. It cannot be tolerated any longer.”
“Our nation was liquidated and destroyed via the mechanisms of democracy.”
“When democracy comes into conflict with our heritage and way of life, I’m going with the latter.”
Engel is the same person who recently suggested that Vice President J.D. Vance, or at least some in his inner circle, could share similar radical views.
“Maybe they’re not quite as radicalized as us, but I do know for a fact that they have staffers and people in their ear, they are our guys,” Engel said. “They operate within our circles. They talk to us. They’re in our group chats.”
Engel’s podcast co-host, Pastor Andrew Isker, has expressed similar views, declaring that “modern, universal, egalitarian democracy is a plague.” He favors an American government where only Christians can vote and hold office. Jews, by his estimation, should be treated as “foster children.”
Isker’s book, Christian Nationalism: A Biblical Guide for Taking Dominion and Discipling Nations, argues “the path forward against secular liberal ‘democracy’ and culture needs to be rooted in Christ and His followers.” (The scare quotes around “democracy” were the choice of Isker and co-author Andrew Torba.)
That night, a podcast viewer, making a SuperChat donation for his comment to be read aloud, suggested that what was necessary was to get Vance on board with abolishing the 19th Amendment, which gave women the right to vote.
Isker responded it would “probably be easier to get rid of democracy as a whole before getting rid of the 19th Amendment.”
Terry Gant, one of their podcast buddies, agreed.
“It’s difficult to get people to disenfranchise themselves democratically,” Gant said with a laugh. “So, that’s going to be tough.”
Some of the guests that election night were politically connected figures who have also openly expressed disdain for modern democracy.
Stephen Wolfe, author of The Case for Christian Nationalism, has called for raising a “Christian prince” with the authority to execute “heretics” who advocate religious ideas that are “dangerous to the soul,” as well as non-Christians who “actively seek to refute the Christian religion.”
Former first-term Trump administration official William Wolfe, who recently proclaimed his desire to do whatever it takes to ensure that America remains majority White, celebrated the prospect that Trump’s re-election might herald the dawn of a “Red Caesar,” exercising a “mandate from heaven.”
“Rock and roll, let’s go!” Wolfe added.
And another guest, far-right Indianapolis businessman Charles Haywood, has opined that “America cannot survive without… an authoritarian reset.” Viewing those on the left as the ultimate enemy, Haywood has argued that “it is indeed necessary to eradicate the Left through authoritarian methods.”
That night, as it was becoming increasingly clear that Trump would once again be elected president, Isker wanted Haywood’s opinion on the future of America.
“Do you think, like, long-term — 10, 15 years from now — that this will set the trajectory for us to win again in very real tangible ways?” he asked. “I mean, not just mass deportations, things like that, but for the GOP to become, you know, actually right-wing?”
Haywood, who has imagined himself as a sort of “Maximum Leader” who would be able to exert power in a time of chaos, was skeptical.
“Fundamentally, you can’t get away with having a democracy,” he said. “You can’t get away with abortion being something that people vote on.”
Part of the solution, Haywood argued, was the restoration of “total freedom of association” — in other words, the right to discriminate. Until that happens, he continued, “America will never flourish again.”
Finally getting around to his answer about the country’s future, the wealthy businessman said, “So, change is necessary for those to happen, but probably requires much more, a much more chaotic period than just, well, Trump wins and now everything is great.”
So, what does that chaotic period look like? “Well, probably the traditional ways of hitting rock bottom are losing a war and economic collapse.”
Haywood suggested what was needed was something akin to the dramatic downward spiral of 1920s Germany.
“You lose a war, your economy collapses, everything is in the crapper, and then you get a Great Depression,” he explained.
“I mean, enough of that and people will vote for big changes. You know, those big changes may not be good, but you need that kind of period of purgation for a society to be willing to accept the changes that are necessary.”
How does America get past this moment when politically connected people are praying for chaos that will bring an end to democracy?
What do you think?
“If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”
David Frum, Trumpocracy: The Corruption of the American Republic
I have been saying for a while these people want to destroy the country. Not only to destroy democracy but make us all submit to WCN rules and norms. They truly believe until we all embrace their religion god will keep punishing us. The are nuts.